Simplifying the mother daughter relationship with Dr. Michelle Deering - Motherhood Simplified
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Published on:

29th Aug 2023

Simplifying the mother daughter relationship with Dr. Michelle Deering

Get Dr. Michelle Deering's book

What Mothers Never Tell Their Daughters

Listen to Dr. Michelle Deering's podcast

The Mother Daughter Connection

Mentioned in this episode:

How To Create Your Mom Proof Decluttering Plan

Go to MotherhoodSimplified.com/DIY

How To Create Your Mom Proof Decluttering Plan

Transcript
Krista:

Hello everybody.

Krista:

I just wanted to give a quick intro for this episode.

Krista:

It is very special to me.

Krista:

We'll talk about it at the beginning where I mentioned that I think that

Krista:

my relationship with my sons is just as important, but as a mom of three

Krista:

daughters, I just feel like there's something different about it and

Krista:

special, especially for me as a daughter who had struggles with her own mom.

Krista:

I think it's a really important relationship, and Michelle Deering.

Krista:

Dr.

Krista:

Michelle Deering is so great at speaking to the mother-daughter relationship.

Krista:

She has an entire book on it.

Krista:

She has an entire podcast on it.

Krista:

I'll link those in the show notes of this episode for you so you can go listen

Krista:

to her podcast if you're interested.

Krista:

She has a really interesting approach.

Krista:

She doesn't talk about it very much or maybe I just miss it.

Krista:

I feel like she, she get a lot more credit for what she does.

Krista:

She was a sports psychologist training female athletes through college and just

Krista:

in addition to being a mother of twin daughters herself, she also got a really

Krista:

unique insight into working with women.

Krista:

And seeing the connection between the relationship between daughters

Krista:

and their mothers and how it.

Krista:

Impacted their life when it came to their sports performance, when it came to their

Krista:

school performance, when it came to just how they live their life in general.

Krista:

It's really interesting and she's got a lot of really good insight on it.

Krista:

And so if you have daughters and you're a mother, this episode is for you.

Krista:

If you are a daughter, I feel like this is a good episode because you can apply a lot

Krista:

of what we talk about to your relationship with your own mom as a daughter.

Krista:

Especially if you read her book.

Krista:

There's a lot of insight on that if you listen to her podcast.

Krista:

A lot of insight on that.

Krista:

So it, it goes multi-directional generationally.

Krista:

Those are big and unnecessary words, but you can apply it and, to your

Krista:

mother, your grandmother backwards and you can apply it to your daughter's.

Krista:

And future, granddaughters.

Krista:

So it's an interesting conversation.

Krista:

I hope that you enjoy it.

Krista:

Michelle is very near and dear to me.

Krista:

Go check her out and I hope that you enjoy this episode.

Krista:

Hello everybody.

Krista:

Welcome to this show with my good friend Dr.

Krista:

Michelle Dearing.

Krista:

She is the host of the Mother-Daughter Connections, and she's just an amazing.

Krista:

Woman.

Krista:

She does all of these things.

Krista:

She's a sports psychologist, she's a licensed psychologist.

Krista:

She's an author, she's got a podcast.

Krista:

She's just, she's a really great friend.

Krista:

She's a great role model of for me, the kind of mom I wanna be.

Krista:

And so in addition to being a good friend of mine, she's got a lot of

Krista:

really great resources for mothers with daughters and how you can support them.

Krista:

And I will say I have sons and I'm just as passionate about learning to support

Krista:

my sons and my relationship with my sons.

Krista:

But there is something.

Krista:

Different and specific about the mother-daughter relationship

Krista:

for a lot of reasons that we could have a million, right?

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

So go listen to her podcast if you wanna go listen to all of those millions of just

Krista:

dynamics of mother-daughter relationships.

Krista:

But yeah, we're gonna talk today about the mother-daughter relationship

Krista:

ways that I'm hoping we can talk specifically about ways we can empower

Krista:

our daughters, like through all.

Krista:

Stages of our lives just what that looks like, what we can do.

Krista:

And yeah.

Krista:

We'll start with that.

Krista:

Hi Michelle and Dr.

Krista:

Krista.

Michelle:

Yes.

Michelle:

Hi.

Michelle:

Yes.

Michelle:

I'm Dr.

Michelle:

Michelle Dearing.

Michelle:

Yes, I actually the work that I do is, as is as a mother-daughter

Michelle:

relationship, personal trainer.

Michelle:

So I'm pulling from.

Michelle:

The stuff that you mentioned Krista earlier, in terms of

Michelle:

my background as a licensed psychologist and sports psychologist.

Michelle:

But what I really do is I educate, encourage, and equip moms with tools

Michelle:

that are specific to whatever their needs are and strategies that are

Michelle:

specific to whatever is going on with their daughter to help them actually.

Michelle:

Make more intentional connections so that they can create conversations

Michelle:

that are effective and communications that are effective and meaningful

Michelle:

for their relationship going forward.

Michelle:

So that's my heart.

Michelle:

That's what I do in essence.

Michelle:

Yes.

Michelle:

Yes.

Michelle:

You are

Krista:

good at it.

Krista:

So I've read your book, I've listened to your content, read your blogs.

Krista:

So this is a, it's gonna be, I'm just gonna jump in with the big question.

Krista:

We can pull it apart from there, but, when it comes to empowering our daughters

Krista:

to you what does that even mean?

Krista:

What does that look like to empower our daughters?

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

I'm a wordsmith and so one of the it's been a, something that I've

Michelle:

been puzzling about for a while, and so I've come to the conclusion that

Michelle:

empowering our daughters and I'll, let's just look at the word empowerment.

Michelle:

Really it means two things.

Michelle:

It means to give power and it also means to take power.

Michelle:

And and every time we are about in this country about to celebrate Independence

Michelle:

Day, that's when it really just comes to the forefront for me as a reminder about

Michelle:

what it is or what I may not be doing to empower my daughters through their stages.

Michelle:

But empowerment of a daughter.

Michelle:

If you start out early on, it's really about giving her power because you as

Michelle:

the mom are in a position of power.

Michelle:

To be blunt.

Michelle:

And I, one of the things that saddens me is when I see moms say with

Michelle:

children who daughters who are like elementary age or younger, where

Michelle:

they actually give up their power.

Michelle:

And cave into things like peer pressure, societal expectations their

Michelle:

own mother's expectations of how they should, or should not be doing things.

Michelle:

So that's something that I think moms really need to be cognizant of, is that

Michelle:

you can't give power unless you fully owned and stepped into your own power.

Michelle:

And a lot of the basis of the work that I do is to help moms steady

Michelle:

themselves so that they can reclaim that.

Michelle:

In whatever scenario or situation they find themselves in.

Michelle:

I

Krista:

love that.

Krista:

I was hoping that you would, I, and I knew that you would just 'cause

Krista:

I know your content Uhhuh but talk about that aspect of it, of we really

Krista:

can't empower our daughters until we know what that's like for ourselves.

Krista:

Or figure out how to do that for ourselves.

Krista:

And because.

Krista:

I'll link to your book so that, and it's on Audible, so if you all wanna

Krista:

listen to it, you can listen to it.

Krista:

And Michelle you, what is it called?

Krista:

You read it?

Michelle:

I, yeah, I, yeah, I narrate the whole day.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

I read the book.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

With all, and I did all the sound effects and things of that nature.

Michelle:

So they're all a bunch of things in there.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

It's really well done.

Krista:

And that was one of the biggest themes of your book that was surprising to me.

Krista:

'cause I knew you.

Krista:

And I got to know you.

Krista:

Before I read your book, and so then I read your book, Uhhuh and you talk about

Krista:

this process of learning, basically learning how to empower yourself and

Krista:

therefore empower your daughters.

Krista:

And I was like, I just assumed Michelle always had that.

Krista:

I just assumed Michelle was gifted a really great like childhood

Krista:

experience, a really mother relationship that was just always

Krista:

easy and that wasn't the case, right?

Krista:

You learned how to take what you have.

Krista:

And empower yourself within that.

Krista:

I think that's key for a lot, if not most moms.

Krista:

I don't I read, maybe it was in your article that I read the statistic,

Krista:

something about more than half, like just over half of daughters

Krista:

are estranged from their mothers.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

By the time they have their first child.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

Which

Michelle:

is, it shocked me.

Michelle:

What it doesn't, it shocked me when you actually see a number, but it shocked me.

Michelle:

It didn't surprise me.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

Because, our moms, first of all, we as moms are first of

Michelle:

first and foremost daughters.

Michelle:

And so we have to understand where things have Gone awry or not met

Michelle:

expectations and things of that nature.

Michelle:

And it's not to say, 'cause I've met moms, especially like if they come

Michelle:

out to where I've done their speaking engagement and stuff like that,

Michelle:

and they'll say to me things like, oh, I so enjoyed your presentation.

Michelle:

I have a great relationship with my mom.

Michelle:

And I'm like, Yeah.

Michelle:

Okay, cool.

Michelle:

Kudos.

Michelle:

Go spread the love.

Michelle:

But then as they continue talking to me about stuff, then I start seeing the

Michelle:

pain in their eyes about certain things.

Michelle:

It might not be a big thing, but.

Michelle:

We all have it.

Michelle:

We don't grow up perfectly.

Michelle:

You've heard me say time and time again, the only thing we as moms do perfectly

Michelle:

is we love our daughters imperfectly.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

And so coming to terms with that is gonna be key.

Michelle:

But then that whole, for me at least with my mom under it, it took me a

Michelle:

while to understand, like in innately I knew that there were things.

Michelle:

That she didn't see or didn't understand about me and wasn't giving me the space.

Michelle:

And I remember specifically something that happened where I think I was about

Michelle:

12 years old and I went out to buy a pair of boots, but I specifically

Michelle:

ended up buying boots that I bought one, one pair that was one color

Michelle:

and one pair that was another color.

Michelle:

And I mix matched my boots on purpose, because for me, that was the one

Michelle:

way that I could take power over.

Michelle:

How I dressed, back then without, en, en encountering the wrath

Michelle:

of, what do you mean you're not dressing properly and looking neat?

Michelle:

Stuff like that.

Michelle:

But every mom's journey with that whole taking her power is different.

Michelle:

And That's one of the things I love coming alongside moms to see

Michelle:

how they discover where it is.

Michelle:

Their relationship with their mom might have had a hiccup or there was something

Michelle:

that left an imprint a certain way that's not, that served its purpose at one

Michelle:

point, but is not serving the purpose now that they have a daughter and they're

Michelle:

experiencing reliving something through them and not knowing how to deal with it.

Michelle:

Yes.

Michelle:

Yeah, it happens.

Krista:

Wow.

Krista:

That's me.

Michelle:

And you have many daughters

Krista:

yeah.

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

It's interesting because even with my youngest, like the different

Krista:

ages that they're at, like right now when we record this, my

Krista:

daughters are three, five, and 13.

Krista:

And so there's a lot of things that I see just experiences that I had as a

Krista:

kid when I think back to being their age where I'm like, I remember having

Krista:

certain responses to certain things and being like, I don't wanna, I don't

Krista:

wanna respond in that way to my kids.

Krista:

And not to say that I don't, sometimes I still do that.

Krista:

Yeah, you get like very aware of, but but I wanted to I was taking some notes.

Krista:

I wanted to talk about the concept of.

Krista:

Giving and taking power because when you said it, I understood it,

Krista:

but just to clarify it, like yes.

Krista:

When we talk about like empowering our daughters giving and taking

Krista:

power, it's not us giving or taking power from them, right?

Krista:

It's us giving them power and then them getting to a place

Krista:

where they can take their power.

Michelle:

Exactly.

Michelle:

And that's where, so if we can break it down developmentally

Michelle:

and this is just, based on.

Michelle:

Eric Ericson's, stages of development.

Michelle:

We from zero, and I'm just gonna clump some things together from

Michelle:

zero to, to like elementary age?

Michelle:

No middle school age.

Michelle:

Just before middle school.

Michelle:

That is a period of time where You are giving power to your daughter.

Michelle:

You do that by allowing her to go explore or allowing her to pick up

Michelle:

her toys, or, go to the bathroom.

Michelle:

Things of that nature.

Michelle:

You're giving her power.

Michelle:

You're in instilling in her those things that you deem to be important, right.

Michelle:

And then what happens is some, and developmentally, because at that age

Michelle:

they're so concrete, everything's black and white so at some point they end up,

Michelle:

another part of their brain starts to develop prefrontal cortex, where now

Michelle:

they're needing to figure out, okay, I had all that stuff and still is that

Michelle:

something I really wanna do and do I have to do it like how mom does it?

Michelle:

Or how mom said I need to do it.

Michelle:

Is that really true?

Michelle:

Because my peers are saying one thing, television saying another thing.

Michelle:

The school yard saying something else.

Michelle:

Is that so important?

Michelle:

So that's the time that mom, I find that moms have even the most difficult

Michelle:

time because they take it personally.

Michelle:

They take it as a personal attack, a personal front to their

Michelle:

sense of being or authority.

Michelle:

And because they have not become power comfortable in their power,

Michelle:

it then becomes a power struggle.

Michelle:

And But during that middle school to high school time is when if you've

Michelle:

navigated the earlier part properly, that high pre middle school to high

Michelle:

school time is a time where you're now giving her space to actually take

Michelle:

up her power by deciding for herself, this is the way I'm gonna do something.

Michelle:

This is what I will or will not listen to, and things of that nature.

Michelle:

So that's what I mean by.

Michelle:

Letting her take up her power.

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

And for me, that also looks not accidentally right.

Krista:

Or even intentionally, like taking it away from her unless I feel like

Krista:

it's, a decision that she's not quite.

Krista:

Able to make for

Michelle:

herself.

Michelle:

And that's the fine line because you as it it's and moms I work with, and I say this

Michelle:

even on my podcast, is you are the mom.

Michelle:

You know your daughter best in all the perfect imperfections.

Michelle:

Right?

Michelle:

And if you have that mother gut, it's I don't know if

Michelle:

she's able to handle that yet.

Michelle:

Then fine step in.

Michelle:

But if you are, and it.

Michelle:

Necessitates a conversation between you and your daughter so that you are

Michelle:

not flying blind and just, unilaterally making these decisions, but engaging her

Michelle:

in conversation, and I'm talking about the middle school to high school age now,

Michelle:

engaging her in conversation to understand how is she thinking about something.

Michelle:

And then embracing it and not seeing it as an affront, but seeing it as, wow, I

Michelle:

had no idea that you thought that way.

Michelle:

And continuing the conversation and that's, I.

Michelle:

That takes work.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

It takes laying the groundwork.

Michelle:

And I know with you and your daughter your oldest daughter, you've been laying

Michelle:

the groundwork all along so that you can have those conversations with her.

Michelle:

So how's it going?

Krista:

So how's it going?

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

I thought you just saw into my, just sound to my soul.

Krista:

You're like, so what's going on?

Krista:

My mind's going in so many ways.

Krista:

Uhhuh.

Krista:

So she is Last night actually, Uhhuh was, she starts high school next year.

Krista:

And so last night I went to the like, school

Michelle:

night orientation,

Krista:

whatever, yeah.

Krista:

Thing.

Krista:

And there were just some little things that happened throughout the

Krista:

night that I was like, okay, like I have to take a step back and not

Krista:

take her what she's doing personally.

Krista:

But So it started off by, my husband works out of town these three days.

Krista:

And so the choice was we could go and I could bring the three and the

Krista:

five-year-olds and my daughter, right?

Krista:

And or 'cause she wanted to go, my oldest daughter wanted to go but she

Krista:

didn't wanna go if the little ones went.

Krista:

And so I'm like I'm in a situation like this is the

Krista:

situation that we have right now.

Krista:

We can bring them.

Krista:

It says kids are welcome.

Krista:

It's just walking around the school, getting a tour of the building.

Krista:

A meet and greet.

Krista:

It's very laid back.

Krista:

It's not like a formal thing.

Krista:

We can bring them, it's not a big deal.

Krista:

And my daughter was like, no, I don't wanna bring them.

Krista:

They're loud and they're annoying and they're gonna be crazy and

Krista:

I'm not gonna be able to focus.

Krista:

So no, I don't want to.

Krista:

And I was like, okay.

Krista:

Like me, I'm like, they're your sisters.

Krista:

Like they're not annoying.

Krista:

They're three and five.

Krista:

But to her, and I can think back to being a kid, Yeah.

Krista:

It was frustrating.

Krista:

'cause I was the oldest of five as well.

Krista:

To I wanna go do something for myself and have like siblings trailing along,

Krista:

distracting, dominating the room.

Krista:

Because they're three and five and that's what they do.

Krista:

And she was like, she, I could tell she was frustrated.

Krista:

I could tell she was disappointed because it couldn't be a thing where she could

Krista:

just go and she's she walked away.

Krista:

She kinda stormed away.

Krista:

And I'm like, okay.

Krista:

Give it some space.

Krista:

Like she's good about.

Krista:

Advocating for herself.

Krista:

She left and came back like 20 minutes later and she was like, I'll stay

Krista:

here and watch the girls, and you go and you send me pictures or FaceTime

Krista:

me there and show me everything.

Krista:

And I'm like, okay, cool.

Krista:

I can do that so easy.

Krista:

So yeah, it was like, I don't know, I think about these things

Krista:

and I don't want her to build resentment towards her sisters.

Krista:

And at some point she might, but also, like that's the

Krista:

situation that we have, right?

Krista:

We don't have family nearby.

Krista:

We don't have.

Krista:

Nannies are babysitters.

Krista:

And it's unfortunate that, first of all, she also told me

Krista:

about this event the day before.

Krista:

So I didn't have a lot of time to plan.

Krista:

If we had known that, yeah.

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

Dad couldn't adjust his work schedule.

Krista:

I love this.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

She didn't, we didn't know about it until, the last minute when he was already gone.

Krista:

So just like navigating those kinds of things.

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

And.

Krista:

Not taking it personally.

Krista:

And then of course when I came home and we're like recapping, she's like

Krista:

frustrated and high strung because she doesn't know all the details.

Krista:

She like doesn't know what to expect.

Krista:

She and.

Krista:

It's stuff that's not in her control.

Krista:

Like registration for classes doesn't open until Friday, and she's I'm

Krista:

gonna have to like, think about it.

Krista:

I'm gonna have to like trick, figure out schedule, blah, blah, blah.

Krista:

I don't know what I'm doing.

Krista:

And nobody knows what they're doing.

Krista:

It's so unorganized.

Krista:

I've got so many opinions about the administration already.

Krista:

I'm like, okay.

Krista:

It's, you know what I'm, and then she did the storm off thing again.

Krista:

Because she's so overwhelmed by figuring out her schedule and knowing

Krista:

what classes she should take, she feels like it's like a huge deal.

Krista:

Which it is, but then to me, I'm like, it's your freshman classes.

Krista:

It's okay.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

And then she came back, she stormed off, she came back and she was

Krista:

like, it's just so frustrating.

Krista:

I don't wanna have to wait.

Krista:

I'm gonna be thinking about it until Friday when I can

Krista:

look at the class schedule.

Krista:

And I'm like I get it.

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

It sucks to not know.

Krista:

Yeah.

Michelle:

That's hard.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

I so appreciate you sharing that story because so many things popped

Michelle:

out to me as you were talking.

Michelle:

First off, I could hear a desire in her to want to focus.

Michelle:

That was one thing, so it's almost like she wanted to be able, it wasn't

Michelle:

that she didn't love her sisters.

Michelle:

It was she needs to focus.

Michelle:

That was something that she.

Michelle:

Expressed as a need, but then for her to go off and then come back with a solution

Michelle:

in the moment, once you explain to her the conditions that you're dealing with

Michelle:

logistically, that speaks volumes to the kind of groundwork you've been laying

Michelle:

in terms of your communication with her.

Michelle:

'cause most, sometimes, Daughters go off and they don't come back

Michelle:

with a pro with a solution.

Michelle:

Okay.

Michelle:

And the thing that That also stood out to me was how, remember, I

Michelle:

remember I said that their prefrontal cortex, that's the planning part

Michelle:

of your brain is still developing.

Michelle:

And so for her, it's just like a lot of information and she seems like the

Michelle:

type of young lady who needs detail in order to be able to get a handle

Michelle:

on things as opposed to other someone else who might, be, go with the flow.

Michelle:

Okay.

Michelle:

The fact that she was able to problem solve with you and then

Michelle:

still express her feelings and you created that safe space for her to

Michelle:

actually tell you I'm frustrated.

Michelle:

And I also suspect that there's this there are two sides to anxiety.

Michelle:

It's not that she's an anxiety ridden whatever, or anxious, but she's excited.

Michelle:

So that's the flip side to it.

Michelle:

So she's also excited and wanting to do well too.

Krista:

Yeah, she, yeah, she def that is definitely her.

Krista:

She loves the details.

Krista:

She's got like a, she's got, it's really cute to watch this,

Krista:

like her stepping into her own.

Krista:

Taking her own power.

Krista:

Like Sundays, she calls 'em productive.

Krista:

Sundays, she's got like a little.

Krista:

Notes list that she keeps track of everything she's gotta do, like her

Krista:

laundry, like resetting her bedroom, like checking in with her friends,

Krista:

like all of these things that she does.

Krista:

And then last night, it's so funny 'cause it was Wednesday Uhhuh and

Krista:

she's can I use your bathroom?

Krista:

I'm doing productive Sunday things on a Wednesday.

Krista:

And I'm like, girl, she is stressed.

Krista:

She's like trying to soothe herself.

Krista:

Go for it.

Krista:

She's I'm staying up late.

Krista:

I'm not going to bed on time.

Krista:

I'm doing productive Sunday things on a Wednesday.

Krista:

It's fine.

Krista:

She's it's February 1st, so it's fine.

Krista:

Okay.

Krista:

Do your thing.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

But yeah, she is, it's, yeah, it's funny to watch and I'm glad that

Krista:

we had this episode to record.

Krista:

Just because like in that moment last night I'll be completely honest and

Krista:

say that like her intensity over it was overwhelming me and all I was focused on

Krista:

really was like, don't take it personally.

Krista:

Because she's like she's not being mean to me, right?

Krista:

Like she wasn't snapping at me.

Krista:

She wasn't being like, Ugh, like she didn't even say things like,

Krista:

you're not helpful or whatever.

Krista:

She was just like, Was her energy, her frustrated energy, yes.

Krista:

For me is really hard to not take personally.

Krista:

And so as she is and I'm like absorbing it, I'm like just in my head being

Krista:

like watch your body language.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

Like just.

Krista:

Nod your head and be like, yep.

Krista:

But inside of my own head, I'm like, my God, I feel like she's attacking me.

Krista:

I feel like she hates me.

Krista:

I feel like she thinks I'm not supporting her.

Krista:

And then, once I get some space, I'm like, okay.

Krista:

She, there was no, there was nothing.

Krista:

Mean about it.

Krista:

She wasn't attacking me.

Krista:

I was able to let her know we can figure this out, just take some space.

Krista:

But

Michelle:

it's hard.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

And I love that you described what the experience for yourself in the moment.

Michelle:

'cause it reminded me of some stuff that I know about you

Michelle:

in terms of keeping the peace.

Michelle:

Your background and keeping things, all copacetic and whatnot.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

And where that comes from.

Michelle:

So the fact that you're aware of that enabled you to be in tune

Michelle:

with your body in the moment.

Michelle:

That's something that we as moms really need to attend to.

Michelle:

Folks hear me say this all the time.

Michelle:

It's important for us as moms to pause to consider the body of our behavior.

Michelle:

We don't pay enough attention to our bodies.

Michelle:

The fact that you were paying attention to your body in that moment and

Michelle:

then accompanying it with the new script of don't take this personally.

Michelle:

Yeah, it's just whatever.

Michelle:

It's not me.

Michelle:

It's stuff going on with her.

Michelle:

How can I help her in this moment?

Michelle:

It was excellent.

Krista:

And it's hard.

Krista:

And I will say I would not have known how to do this three or four years ago.

Krista:

But it's so easy and I can see it just because of I've done things like

Krista:

read your book and watch your content and I've gone to therapy and I've

Krista:

done a lot of exploration of I can understand how having that feeling.

Krista:

Would make it so that I would lash out at her.

Krista:

And be like, just trying to help.

Krista:

You're right.

Krista:

All you have to do is it's not that big of a deal, right?

Krista:

Just step, I'm on the same team or whatever.

Krista:

Like, why are you taking this out on me?

Krista:

And she wasn't doing that.

Michelle:

Yeah, because you've been giving her this space to do

Michelle:

that from when she was younger.

Michelle:

Even.

Michelle:

Even in.

Michelle:

Your own person during your own seasons of personal exploration,

Michelle:

you were still giving her the space to be able to express that stuff to

Michelle:

you and feel safe enough to feel I.

Michelle:

Those things.

Michelle:

I think sometimes there, there are pockets of moms I work with who,

Michelle:

in their, and I'm just using the word estrangement with their moms.

Michelle:

It's because they have to put up those boundaries and cut those ties for whatever

Michelle:

season because they haven't felt safe.

Michelle:

Their mom hasn't been able to give them that space, safe space

Michelle:

to actually feel in the moment.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Krista:

And I will say there are like, that's.

Krista:

Like in the grand scheme of things, kind a very, I think, benign situation,

Krista:

like surface level situation, but it has a lot of potential to

Krista:

do some good foundational work.

Krista:

And I will also share just that like social media, I think every

Krista:

parent struggles with this Yes.

Krista:

Of the line between empowering your kids with social media, phones, technology

Krista:

and disempowering them with it.

Krista:

So I don't think they're.

Krista:

Is much.

Krista:

I don't know if I wanna go in the super details of it, but that is

Krista:

a big conversation around here.

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

And one of the things that we've been really adamant about, like through middle

Krista:

school, is not letting them have Snapchat.

Krista:

Not letting them have TikTok.

Krista:

And my kids don't like it, but I did.

Krista:

And we've always told them why.

Krista:

To us, the risks outweigh the benefits.

Krista:

And there are benefits of learning to communicate with your peers in other ways.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

Call them, FaceTime them, text them, and my daughter after school every

Krista:

day now FaceTimes with her friends.

Krista:

Instead of doing what the rest of the kids are talking.

Krista:

Snapchat, just because I've done so much I'm pretty close with

Krista:

the bark technology company.

Krista:

And I see.

Krista:

Like the dark side of it, and to me, that's just a boundary with my kids

Krista:

that I don't feel like they're ready.

Krista:

Or I don't feel like their brains are ready to handle social media.

Krista:

Adults can hardly handle it.

Krista:

Adults can hardly handle it.

Krista:

It just opens up this huge wide web of like things that they're not, I

Krista:

don't, for me, that's just something that we have decided as parents we're

Krista:

not gonna do yet, but and it's been a weird balance of empowering them and

Krista:

giving them access to some things.

Krista:

And trying not to disempower 'em.

Krista:

But I know there's been conversations where she will tell me, I'm old

Krista:

enough to do this respectfully, mom, I'm old enough to have this.

Krista:

Everybody else has it.

Krista:

And I'm like, respectfully

Michelle:

disagree.

Michelle:

I don't think you

Krista:

do.

Krista:

And it's.

Krista:

I don't know.

Krista:

I've just, I've always tried to let them know it's not because we don't trust you,

Krista:

it's not because we want to control you.

Krista:

It's because we don't trust Snapchat and we don't trust everybody else that

Krista:

has access to you on Snapchat, because that's essentially what you're doing.

Krista:

So anyway.

Michelle:

No.

Michelle:

I'm, I, no, I'm glad you brought that up.

Michelle:

And the part that jumps out to me is the whole thing of, I don't see

Michelle:

empowerment as, Just empower, empowering their behavior or their expression.

Michelle:

I think first and foremost that the empowerment needs to be in their thinking

Michelle:

and knowing how to take in information and discern it and then make decisions

Michelle:

based on information and I don't know, this is just my opinion, but I think.

Michelle:

As a human race, we've it's not that we've evolved, but I think in certain

Michelle:

respects learning how to have discourse dialogue and be able to rationally

Michelle:

talk about, okay, this is what I think.

Michelle:

And this is why I think it, these are the sources from once I've gotten my

Michelle:

information, and this is how I've.

Michelle:

Distilled it down for myself to understand it.

Michelle:

What do you think?

Michelle:

And then the other person being that whole skill is like few and far between.

Michelle:

And I think that most of the empowerment needs to be about not just, okay how

Michelle:

are you going to manage social media?

Michelle:

This phone is in your hand.

Michelle:

These images are going by you.

Michelle:

These tweets are coming for you.

Michelle:

I.

Michelle:

How are you going to decide?

Michelle:

What you look at, what you don't look at, what you read, what

Michelle:

you don't read, how you read.

Michelle:

Distill down those skills.

Michelle:

I think we as moms need to take back up our power to get informed, to get

Michelle:

resources, to inform ourselves, to not see it as something that's unmanageable

Michelle:

for ourselves, so that we can then instruct our daughters on, okay, there's

Michelle:

some, here's some scientific facts here.

Michelle:

Here's some data here.

Michelle:

These are some things here.

Michelle:

Let's look together and see how.

Michelle:

What you think.

Michelle:

Let's hop on whatever.

Michelle:

That was a conversation that I have twin daughters.

Michelle:

And when they were in elementary school knowing that they were gonna have to take

Michelle:

a bus in New Jersey for middle school, it, the conversation came up about

Michelle:

phones and the technology back then was a little bit, not as sophisticated as

Michelle:

it is now, but still it was okay, let's now have a conversation with phones.

Michelle:

Not as a one and done sit down conversation, but an ongoing.

Michelle:

Phones are like cars.

Michelle:

You need to take responsibility with the phone the same way you do with the car.

Michelle:

So here are some things we're gonna be looking for.

Michelle:

How are you doing your chores?

Michelle:

Are you forgetting?

Michelle:

Are you cognizant of time?

Michelle:

Because in my mind, the goal is when you have your phone, and I ask you to

Michelle:

call me when you've gotten to a certain destination, just because I care about

Michelle:

you and wanna know that you're safe, are you gonna be able to be cognizant of time?

Michelle:

You see what I'm saying?

Michelle:

So it's about training those things that you deem important in terms of their

Michelle:

thinking and analy analytical skills.

Krista:

Yes, I agree with that.

Krista:

And here, if you're listening on the podcast, we've got a little three-year-old

Krista:

running in with a something, right?

Krista:

I don't know what, I

Michelle:

love it.

Michelle:

I love it.

Michelle:

It's gone now.

Michelle:

Yes.

Michelle:

It always happens.

Michelle:

That's fine.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

Okay, so this, yeah, I, it's a good conversation and it brings me to the

Krista:

last thing that I wanted to talk about that is, I don't know, I'm interested

Krista:

to hear what you think about it.

Krista:

Talking about like estrangement, we started off the conversation talking

Krista:

about like that statistic of more than half of moms are estranged

Krista:

from their daughters when they have their first child and i, that is me.

Krista:

That's me and has been me since for, at this point, more than half of my life.

Krista:

So I, based on this conversation, what I've realized is that was me, my first

Krista:

really decision I made to take my own power was that like I've had been trying

Krista:

to, within my relationship at home and with my mom, and it wasn't possible.

Krista:

Because it was always a, it was always taken from me and I that the only way

Krista:

that I could see that I could stand on my own two feet essentially was to,

Krista:

estrange myself, I don't know the word for it, but to cut the ties with that.

Krista:

And it's weird because I intuitively knew that I didn't have the words to articulate

Krista:

it, but like when I left home, At 16.

Krista:

I knew that was the only way I would ever be able to live

Krista:

the life that I wanted to live.

Krista:

And that in hindsight is that's what empowerment is, right?

Krista:

Like I took it because that's what I needed to do.

Krista:

And my reason for sharing this is that I don't want my daughters to feel like

Krista:

the only way that they can take their own power is by me not being in the picture.

Krista:

Like that.

Krista:

I don't want that.

Krista:

But I do think there is like some nuances with that.

Krista:

Just because you estranged you are estranged.

Krista:

Doesn't mean that it's gonna be forever.

Krista:

And sometimes that's what you've gotta do to recalibrate

Krista:

the power dynamic between you.

Krista:

I dunno, I'm interested in your thoughts and experience with that.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

Yeah, there's so many things I could say about that.

Michelle:

It's a big thing.

Michelle:

It's a big thing.

Michelle:

And my heart, Like really aches for moms who are experiencing

Michelle:

that with their own mother.

Michelle:

Which is why and I know you are familiar with the work I'm doing with the

Michelle:

Estrangement project and three other colleagues, that was what brought us

Michelle:

together because we knew that there are moms who are either thinking in

Michelle:

a place where it's pre-contemplative, where they're thinking about gee,

Michelle:

I gotta do something different.

Michelle:

I don't know how to, those who are.

Michelle:

Have just made the decision.

Michelle:

I'm cutting off ties with my mom 'cause I just need to get my bearings here

Michelle:

to those who have been in it for a long time and saddled with all this

Michelle:

guilt and questioning of themselves.

Michelle:

Let me just back up.

Michelle:

The whole estrangement is really a term that I see as meaning deep down inside

Michelle:

you as a woman, as a mom, as a daughter, Feel something, have been experiencing

Michelle:

something that is not promoting health and wellbeing for yourself.

Michelle:

And it's not to fault, I'm not pointing at your mom or laying blame at your mom.

Michelle:

She's just who she is.

Michelle:

But in the moment, and in those moments, you have not been able

Michelle:

to just breathe or be healthy and.

Michelle:

A lot of times moms think that it's mom, and I'm just gonna say daughters just

Michelle:

know at this point I'm talking about adult moms who are adult daughters.

Michelle:

Okay.

Michelle:

Okay.

Michelle:

Moms who are adult daughters, right?

Michelle:

There you go.

Michelle:

Moms who are adult daughters.

Michelle:

Okay.

Michelle:

Okay.

Michelle:

So you know at there's at something that is, is there's, I just lost my train

Michelle:

of thought, but the thing I'm trying to say is there's a process where.

Michelle:

Society would say, you're being selfish, you're being mean.

Michelle:

You're a bad daughter for you, for not wanting to be around, interact

Michelle:

with, or stay connected to your mom.

Michelle:

And my position is then you don't understand the struggle.

Michelle:

And that the healthiest thing you can do, the same way when you're in an airplane

Michelle:

and it says, look, oxygen has gone out.

Michelle:

Your life is about, is being in danger.

Michelle:

The first thing, even if you have your kid next to you, is to put

Michelle:

on your own oxygen mask first.

Michelle:

And that in essence is what you're doing.

Michelle:

You're creating a new safe space by establishing some new

Michelle:

boundaries to be able to breathe.

Michelle:

Yeah, breathe life into yourself.

Michelle:

So that you can be present for the family that you have.

Michelle:

Which is what your main responsibility is now as an adult daughter who is a mother.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

And that is the greatest gift you can give.

Michelle:

And I put that in quotations, but it's big cushy quotations.

Michelle:

That is the biggest gift you can give your mom, is to just be about yourself and what

Michelle:

you need to do to maintain your health.

Michelle:

And wellbeing everybody's journey through that, pre into

Michelle:

and post estrangement period.

Michelle:

And so for some moms it's, there's never a post estrangement for

Michelle:

whatever reason, but every mom's jour mom's experiences is different.

Michelle:

Their journey's different, but there's some common themes and

Michelle:

it's gonna be so important for you to get community around that.

Michelle:

And that's why Myself and my three other colleagues have started the Estrangement

Michelle:

project which I'm really glad about.

Michelle:

And hope that folks will partake of the resources there as well as, and

Michelle:

that's why I love the work that you do, Krista, because it's not just about

Michelle:

decluttering, it's about community and the things that you embody, I think

Michelle:

the kind of community that you wish.

Michelle:

To have with yourself and your family, and you've just expanded into these

Michelle:

thousands of moms who partake of it and feel safe enough to express

Michelle:

where they are and what they need.

Michelle:

And that's very healing for them and very important.

Michelle:

Yeah, because we've talked before about how decluttering is not just a physical

Michelle:

thing, but it's also a metaphorical thing for decluttering and taking

Michelle:

care of what's going on inside of you.

Krista:

It's, yeah.

Krista:

One of the things that I say is that decluttering is a form of self-advocacy,

Krista:

and it's a form of learning how to create and maintain and uphold boundaries.

Krista:

And it trickles into all of the other areas of your life,

Krista:

specifically with, mother-daughter relationships, which is the last

Krista:

thing that I wanted to touch on Uhhuh.

Krista:

And I hope that it encour like it.

Krista:

This whole episode encourages you to go check out.

Krista:

Your podcast, first of all, and the estrangement project.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

I'll get the links for that.

Krista:

And I'm not qualified.

Krista:

I'm not qualified like you are or the other, women who you're

Krista:

working with to talk about like estrangement strategies or whatever.

Krista:

I can just speak from my own experience and that is that

Krista:

I don't, like I said, I, I.

Krista:

Could intuitively tell that's what I needed to do, because I could see that

Krista:

my own mom didn't have her own power.

Krista:

She just didn't.

Krista:

She still doesn't, and that's okay.

Krista:

But yeah, like you said, it's not, I'm not helping myself and I'm not helping her by

Krista:

continuing to be the source of her power.

Krista:

Because it's just siphoned from me.

Krista:

It's just like you said, like not being able to breathe, because it is so

Krista:

siphoned and like it's truly suffocating.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

When somebody you're with somebody or around somebody living with

Krista:

somebody engaged with somebody who relies on you to do that.

Krista:

And I think about things like if I had stayed with her maintained

Krista:

the relationship with her.

Krista:

Even if I didn't have kids.

Krista:

If I didn't have my own kids, it might've been doable for me

Krista:

because I didn't have to pour into.

Krista:

My own kids.

Krista:

I could have maybe just been like, oh, it's fine.

Krista:

I can manage my life and her, right?

Krista:

But that wouldn't have been doing her any service anyway, because

Krista:

what if something happens to me, all of a sudden she's got nothing.

Krista:

Exactly.

Krista:

And yeah, I like that you mentioned that, like that's actually

Krista:

beneficial for both of you.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

To be able to stand on your own two feet.

Krista:

And yeah, I think a lot of times moms.

Krista:

Become estranged from their own moms.

Krista:

Because when you do have your own kids, if you're not able to pull

Krista:

from your own power without it being siphoned or taken from you you can't

Krista:

do that with your own daughters.

Krista:

And so I'm not advocating, or I'm not saying cut off your relationship.

Krista:

You're not.

Krista:

I'm not saying that.

Krista:

I'm just saying that boundaries are good and sometimes if the boundaries aren't

Krista:

able to be established and upheld, like in my situation yeah, just cutting it

Krista:

off can be the right decision and for me it's been like a process of in that

Krista:

moment I knew it was the right decision.

Krista:

Great, yes, this feels so much better.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

And then I did it before I had kids, and then I had kids, and

Krista:

that validated of yes, okay, this was definitely the right decision.

Krista:

I can't imagine.

Krista:

Having that dynamic and having my own kids.

Krista:

But then, as time goes on, you wonder things like that because you do hear

Krista:

things from people of you're selfish.

Krista:

You should just care more.

Krista:

You should have just tried it.

Krista:

Like it's not her fault.

Krista:

It's not there.

Krista:

And then you do wobble with it and be like you know what if, or then

Krista:

you're like what if she dies and I don't ever, we don't ever fix it.

Krista:

And it's it's essentially a grieving process, yes.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

But for me, still empower.

Krista:

I think it's one of the reasons I've been able to stay

Krista:

empowered with my own daughters.

Krista:

And I've got weird things.

Krista:

Like all of my daughters were born on new bos.

Krista:

Oh, really?

Krista:

And I'm like, yeah.

Krista:

I'm like, oh, wow.

Krista:

I feel like, yeah 'cause I can see my mom had her own dynamics

Krista:

and she hasn't figured it out.

Krista:

And I did, I think I, I tried, like five years ago.

Krista:

And it was like instantly the same conversation.

Krista:

The same.

Krista:

It was like, Hey, I think I reached out and was like, do

Krista:

you ever wanna talk about this?

Krista:

I've had these things that, really didn't work for me that were really

Krista:

dangerous and hurtful for me.

Krista:

I don't know if anything's changed.

Krista:

It's been a decade.

Krista:

I just wanted to see if anything had changed on your end.

Krista:

And it was like, no save.

Krista:

Exactly.

Krista:

I'm like,

Michelle:

okay.

Krista:

Okay, it's not gonna work for me.

Krista:

I can't do that.

Krista:

I can't engage with that.

Krista:

So yeah, I guess my point is that.

Krista:

Estrangement doesn't have to be forever.

Krista:

It can be like a recalibration of boundaries and setting them.

Krista:

And maybe that doesn't work.

Krista:

You don't have to sacrifice your stuff or that, I

Michelle:

don't know.

Michelle:

Yeah, one of, one of the ways Actually, someone was saying to me recently that

Michelle:

they felt that they were being selfish.

Michelle:

Selfish assumes that you have a self to fish with.

Michelle:

But that it's more about self focus to really stay in tune with what is

Michelle:

it that you honestly feel you need.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

And be honest about that because your needs matter.

Michelle:

Did, there's this other myth that's out there.

Michelle:

It's yeah, you're only a good mom if you just give, and just give.

Michelle:

Last time I checked, we all are finite, have limitations.

Michelle:

But, and that's okay.

Michelle:

That's why there's community.

Michelle:

That's why, there are resources to be of help to you.

Michelle:

And that it's not the best leaders are those that know what they don't know.

Michelle:

And that can seek out where they can get the things that they need.

Michelle:

But your needs matter in, in all this.

Michelle:

Yes.

Krista:

I like this conversation too about the giving and the taking power.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

'cause it feels like, I don't wanna say this in like the wrong way,

Krista:

but it feels like there's an end in sight almost of like, when my

Krista:

daughters are younger, there's a, an imbalance of what I'm giving to them.

Krista:

Giving giving.

Krista:

With the goal of making it so they can get to a point where

Krista:

they can take it for themselves.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

Without me feeling like it's personal, without me feeling

Krista:

like I'm losing something.

Krista:

Which I think is the biggest difference that I can feel between like my

Krista:

mom and I and my daughter and I.

Krista:

And I hope that my daughter feels like we'll see how, what happens, but I hope

Krista:

my daughter feels the same way, and I hope that I am on the right track with this,

Krista:

but I could tell, like when I was growing up, once I started to take my own power,

Krista:

it was a problem and it didn't work.

Krista:

And that's why it doesn't work.

Krista:

And that's a very simplified explanation of it.

Krista:

But like with my own daughter, I can feel her starting to take her own

Krista:

things and it feels good for me too.

Krista:

Like it feels good for her.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

Obviously she's high strung figuring it all out.

Krista:

So does it feel perfect for her?

Krista:

But for me, it feels good to me to be like, Awesome.

Krista:

Like we can both

Michelle:

exist.

Michelle:

Yes.

Michelle:

And you have that foundation of communication, which is so key and that,

Michelle:

and that's what I focus on with moms to actually figure out what their, what tools

Michelle:

they have, what have they been using.

Michelle:

If you've been using a hammer, Instead of a screwdriver to address something

Michelle:

and you know what a screwdriver is, but you don't have experience

Michelle:

with it, then we train you in that.

Michelle:

But yeah, the fact that you and your daughter are still able to

Michelle:

communicate is what is the foundation I.

Michelle:

That you've been setting and making it feel good.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Krista:

That's what I, yeah.

Krista:

That I, this conversation was clarifying for me.

Krista:

'cause I'm like, ah, it's so exhausting to be a mom sometimes.

Krista:

Especially when you have s gosh.

Krista:

Oh gosh, yes.

Krista:

It feels so much like moms have to give.

Krista:

But there is a tipping point to where you still give, right?

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

That's not what you have to do forever.

Michelle:

That's correct.

Michelle:

You, and actually not just, Not to do forever, but whatever giving you

Michelle:

do, it's gonna be in a different way.

Michelle:

Yes.

Michelle:

When you do it, and it's gonna be a way that's complimentary to the

Michelle:

developmental stage that you're in at that time and what she's in at that time.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

And I can totally hear you on the Mom of daughters being a lot.

Michelle:

We have twins and everyone is oh, this must be so nice to have twins.

Michelle:

I love my girls.

Michelle:

My young women, sorry, they're not girls anymore.

Michelle:

They're young women, adult women.

Michelle:

But the whole thing with twins is just when I would think I'd get

Michelle:

in a rhythm with one and then.

Michelle:

I'd realize that's right.

Michelle:

They are different people.

Michelle:

I have to make the adjustment with the other one.

Michelle:

Even though they're the same age, they're different.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

Even though they looked alike at some point they're different.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

Yeah, I hear you.

Krista:

This is a really good conversation.

Krista:

Thank you, Michelle, for this.

Krista:

I love getting to talk to you, especially when.

Krista:

We do episodes together.

Krista:

By the way, everybody, this is, you have another episode that I'll

Krista:

link that you can go listen to that we did a couple years ago.

Krista:

Yeah.

Krista:

But yeah, this is I hope it was helpful for everybody listening in.

Krista:

Go check out Michelle's resources, her podcast, the estrangement

Krista:

project that I will link in the description here or in the show

Krista:

notes, whatever they're called, right?

Krista:

And yeah, go find some support for yourself and.

Krista:

Go check it out.

Krista:

Your book is called Mother-Daughter?

Michelle:

Nope.

Michelle:

It's called What Mothers Never Tell Their Daughters.

Michelle:

Yeah.

Michelle:

Is the name of my book.

Michelle:

That's okay.

Michelle:

That's fine.

Michelle:

And the podcast is Mother-Daughter Connections on

Michelle:

Instagram and all that stuff.

Michelle:

But really, I.

Michelle:

Become part of my email community.

Michelle:

'cause I do a lot of communications tips and thoughts.

Michelle:

And I respond to every single email personally.

Michelle:

Yes.

Michelle:

So folks write to me and I respond.

Michelle:

Yes, we have conversations that way.

Michelle:

So I'm here for you.

Krista:

Yes.

Krista:

Go check it out.

Krista:

Go join.

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About the Podcast

Motherhood Simplified
Welcome to Motherhood Simplified, a podcast for moms who want to declutter but don't want to become a full blown minimalist!
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Krista Lockwood